Jesse:
Saw the cover of the Star today in a news box. My thought for right now? I think the Prime Minister screwed up twice.
First, in tacking on the political subsidies cut, and thinking the opposition would a) back down or b) look terrible opposing it. That one didn't exactly fly, did it?
Then, now that Cam's favourite minister John Baird confirms they're dropping the political subsidy thing (for now)... another mistake.
For how are even these lying liars supposed to reasonably claim that this is only about the subsidies? When wieners like Pierre Poilievre (pronounced Paul-iver to enhance sliminess in an anglophone riding) show up claiming that this is about political subsidies, will even he, snakiest snake that he is, be able to handle the snappy rebuttal, "But you pulled to subsidy proposal"? I can' t see it.
PP - "The Liberals are looking out for their own financial interests in a time of financial crisis"
Liberal - "Mr Poilievre [pronounced correctly to make him mad] is obviously out of the loop. His political puppeteers have already recognized that partisan attacks in such a trying economic time were wrong, and backed down. Our concern is with the fact that Stephen Harper and his minions are completely wrong on the economy. They were wrong when they claimed they wouldn't run a deficit, they were wrong when they said everything was fine, they were wrong when they counselled Canadians to buy stock which has since continued to plunge, and they were wrong when they failed to fall in line with the rest of the world in trying to fix the problem."
Congratulations on screwing yourself coming and going.
Sunday, November 30
Like I Was Going To Talk About Anything Else
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14 comments:
ok, so I just read this post. Apparently it's not about the subsidies (openly).
The NDP and the Libs are being careful to emphasize that it's not.
Obviously, that's what pushed them into the red zone. But now, it's not. It's about crushing the asshole who thought it was an OK idea to try to rig the table in a recession.
I'm really uncomfortable with this coalition. I don't want the NDP or Bloq anywhere near the reigns of power, at this time especially. I support Harper's plan on the economy and find it strange in a way that he is being brought down on legislation (or a lack of) that I'm sure he genuinely believes is for the best of the country and that I support.
Also, if we want to speak about pleasing white men in suits, Quebec overnight becomes a much less amicable place to invest your money. Do you honestly think a foreigner who knows little about Canada will invest in Quebec when he sees on google that separatists serve in the government? And, as for the NDP, I'm sure their presence is excellent in encouraging corporate investment? Any plus stemming from a stimulus is immediately taken away (plus loads) from the presence of socialists and separatists in the government.
Congratulations; you've joined the ranks of "people who don't trust experts".
Apparently you, and Prime Minister Harper, know much better than everyone else in the world, and every economist, what needs to be done.
I'm sure you're reasoning was enhanced by the announcement that the US is in recession. That should mean we need stimulus even less, right? Hey, maybe Harper should raise income taxes, since we're doing so well. I think the economy needs to cool off. He can use it to finance another GST cut, so he can make damn sure that when his know-nothing, rabid right wing party finally gets turfed, there's no money left to do anything progressive. Just like Reagan, and Bush II, the cupboard will be bare, and someone with a lick of sense will waste years cleaning up the mess.
Welcome to the squad.
For greater clarity, my problem is that you think you know better than a) experts and b) everyone else, just like Harper.
How does that make any sense?
Address my second comment and tell me how this can possibly be good for Canada. I'm fine with disagreement with Liberals over a stimulus. That is not my main problem with this, as you've tried to frame it. My main problem with this is that the NDP and Bloq, who are both now the players backing the government, will be terrible for our economy.
This will be good for Canada if the Liberals have cut a deal whereby the NDP has agreed to support economic policies that are good for Canadians (who, I remind you, live in Canada).
Obviously, if the deal involves handing a trillion dollars over to Quebec, and... I don't know, whatever it is you think the NDP wants to do in this time of crisis... it will be bad.
But this is a time for action on the economy, not cut backs. You're the expert; walk me through how cutting funding is going to help pull us out of the recession that your economic genius Harper has admitted we're in? By swelling the unemployment rolls?
And this is a time for people to try to work together, not a time to try to jam poison pills down the throats of the opposition to create, then perpetuate, a majority that 62% of Canadians opposed.
Based on the conversation that Harper's goons eavesdropped on, which was, I hope we can agree, at the very least stunningly dishonourable, Layton seemed to imply that he had been trying to co-opt the BQ into working for the good of the country for a while. If that actually works out, and he can tame them, great. If they discredit their argument that Canada can't work, and that they can't participate in its Parliament, that's good too.
You need to factor in that the Liberals agree with, and I'm afraid I'm going to emphasize this again, economists and the whole rest of the world and believe it will be harmful to Canadians to do nothing (the HU-Harper plan). If you felt that economists and the whole rest of the world had it right, what would you do that differently?
Put another way, if the Liberals were in power, and wanted to stimulate the economy (which you're opposed to), would you reject the NDP and the BQ if they wanted to stand pat? Imagine that you accepted (unlike Harper) that this is a big deal?
I think it's possible that this will turn out to be a mistake, and I'm not super-thrilled with the partnership either. But I don't see how you can suggest that putting the Liberals and economists's and the whole rest of the world's economic vision in a time of crisis ahead of partisan considerations is so terrible.
I've already laid out my argument for holding back on a stimulus at the current time, at least until the markets cease in their volatility. We're not powerful enough in Canada and cannot put enough money down to halt this volatility. Until this ends, our market will kind of ride the US market(do you envision a scenario in which the TSX is at 14000 and the DJI is at 5000? No, because the DJI is hugely powerful in impacting our TSX), though operating at a better level due to the fact our companies did not screw themselves as much as their US counterparts. Don't forget that I'm not opposed to a stimulus. I just think a spring stimulus makes way more sense, after the volatility. One now, given the strength of the Canadian government, will in my estimation be weak and ineffective. I'm yet to read something that clearly laid out and articulated why the conservative handling of the mess - given that our mess is not the mess of the US or the UK or the EU etc and that takes into account the impact of the US economy on the Canadian economy - was that terrible.
Unemployment is not out of control yet (unless you have information that I have not seen). RY has not fired 100,000 staff. BNS has not fired 50,000 staff. These are the equivalent scenarios in the US and UK that have not come yet to Canada. If we do see a mass firing, the question must be asked if the Canadian government could have prevented the unemployment rise. We rely on the US government to prop up the autos so cannot prevent an auto crash alone. If, however, we reach a situation in which we have 15% unemployment, then yes, we will need massive government spending. But we are not in that situation now and it is through the present lens that we must view the financial crisis. The Canadian economy is doing better now than the US one, but in the past 2 months, our government has spent probably $20b on toxic mortgages while the US government has spent trillions. We are not collapsing like in the US. We're in a recession, but we're not collapsing or facing the prospect of our major banks folding and therefrom cutting funding to individual citizens and small businesses (again, unless you've seen information to the contrary).
As for the prospect of the coalition, do you see a scenario in which Quebec forestry and whatnot will not be getting tons of taxpayer money despite the fact that spending on other programs will make more economic and social sense, benefiting more Canadians? What will the NDP demand - will we see the government locking into contracts putting them on the bill for billions? Is this fair to Canadians? Is putting taxpayer money to such causes effective during a period of economic weakness?
Not that anyone cares, but:
a)I honestly don't get the so-called joke about my liking Baird. It's neither true nor funny, so I'm puzzled.
b)I'm pretty skeptical about the bailout/stimulus packages too, but if everyone's on board then who am I to argue.
I think it's worth pointing out that we're in really weird economic times; a recession with low inflation (when stagflation was the last worry,) but with the trigger not an overheating nor a supply/demand contraction, but rather a liquidity problem...so the problem is that people are simultaneously neither spending enough nor saving enough...
Anywho, with stuff this messed up I defer to the consensus, but I share the general concerns here.
To be honest, though, the current economic consensus saves the Tories more than it hurts it, right?
I mean, if the solution is a stimulus package...does that mean that despite themselves the Tories were right about the GST cut...that the Liberals were wrong all the time...the geniuses!!!
I'm only half kidding; that's how messed up the new economic consensus has become...
And another major point that I mentioned in my first post, or one of the earlier ones: the NDP and Bloq presence in government, or propping it up, will scare investors away. Quebec suddenly becomes a more dangerous place to invest, while every foreign investor will worry about Canada becoming protectionist with the NDP on board. Any advantage brought by a stimulus will be taken away and more by the presence of the NDP and Bloq helping shape our country's policy. How can this possibly be good for the economy? Is a scenario with the Libs-NDP-Bloq giving a stimulus and simultaneously scaring away investors better than a scenario of the cons holding off on a stimulus at least for a few months? The cons never scared anybody away from investing in Canada. We were a good place to put money. This change is very bad for our economy.
Well, the Finance Minister told people not to invest in Ontario, to start.
The GST cut was inefficient and regressive, and it came at the wrong time to actually act as a stimulus to shock the economy out of the recession it's going in to.
People are already being fired. Everyone except you guys and Harper/Flaherty realize we're heading into a recession.
Which means, to return to my earlier point, that we could really use that GST money now, instead of using it to make sure rich guys could save some money on their boats.
People want their government to help. An economic stimulus which will actually create some jobs will take months to take effect, and spending on infrastructure and universities is a good idea anyway (please note that the auto and lumber bailouts will not, presumably, be stimulus per se, but rather more like a loan).
We can reconvene in six months for my abject apologies. Good talk though; this was solid.
The disagreement, as you know but are not saying, is not over whether we are in a recession. It is over how to address the situation. And again, contrary to what you have been saying about me, I have said throughout this debate that we need a stimulus, just one in a few months I think will be more effective. And, again contrary to what you have been saying, many experts have been saying we should hold off on a stimulus. And again, contrary to what you've been saying about me, I am more worried about the effects of the NDP and Bloc on our economy than a stimulus. If the Libs alone were proposing a stimulus, I would be supportive of them. With the NDP and Bloc involvement, I would be concerned the effects of a stimulus, as I've said several times, would be reversed and more by concern from investors in investing money in Canada.
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